• Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

What causes the rod bearing to fail on/m1000

R

RKT

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2001
1,819
1,485
113
Preston, Idaho
www.2strokeheads.com
I agree with MM, deto is main crank failure issue. Ignoring a lean spot in your fuel delivery and riding around that lean spot is not good thinking, maybe the best you can do for a day, but every time you go through that lean spot and you have deto its knocking flat spots on this lower end rollers and eventually when they get toooo flat from going past the deto pounding, things go to pot. Need new crank.

The question I always have is when you have a big twin with lots of rolling crank mass giving good low end, why put compression in these things ? big pistons are deto prone anyway, higher the compression ratio the less top end power you have, you want to climb a hill on the mat at 7500 not 3800 rpm, you want less compression not more. woop *** compression is good for a 440 snow cross sled looking for corner to corner power for 200feet. Hundreds of dyno tech articles have detailed this issue over the years. but you cans still buy high compression heads for big twins and a pipe stuffing more mixture in the combustions chamber making it almost impossible to avoid some deto. 1500 mile crank life is pure genius.


With all due respect.. thie highlight statement is simply not true..

Compression is only 1 player in the combustion process.. You can have higher compression and a SLOWER flame front resulting in a SLOWER pressure build.. The list goes on and on..

Increased compression is always a positive when done right.. when done wrong.. it can be fatal.. that is why you have to be careful and have a good understanding of whagt is really taling place during the combustion process..
Over-simplifying it like highlighted is simply misleading and not true..

The crank failures on the the M10 are almost all due to detonation and low oil.. Avoid detonation and increase the oikl to the bearings and the cranks will live just fine...
All these people that were turning down their oil pump or running premix at a ratio less than 32:1 were just asking for a big end failure.. and most of them got them..

Oh Ya.. synthetic oil will decrease crank life as well..:crutch::hail:


But.. any large mass crank with a very heavy piston attached (like the 1000) will have more crank stress than any smaller engine..

Pre-detonation is when your sled is sitting on the garage floor or idling etc. etc.. It is not a term that make much sense..(no offense) Detonation occurs AFTER ignition there is no way to pre-detonate.. either you have deto or you do not.. there is no in between .. again the "pre" stage is ANYTIME it is running or sitting and it is not detonating..

The 1000 would benefit from a counter balancer to combat some harmonics.. that would increase cra nk life as well.. but expecting more than 2500 mountain miles from the M1000 is simply not realistic.. lower the oil add some heads that promote deto and that 2500 turns into 1500 real fast

Kelsey
 
Last edited:

Thunder101

Well-known member
Premium Member
Feb 7, 2008
1,303
191
63
Kelsey just to confirm what your saying. Is it not possible to create hot spots on your pistons from deto which can then lead to preignition? Also deto is what happens when the flame front from ignition ( speed of a/f burning) happens faster then the engine is designed for. e.g: compression , timing advance, octane of the fuel. All happening BEFORE TDC and pounding some or all parts involved,e.g: bearings, pistons.

"Compression is only 1 player in the combustion process.. You can have higher compression and a SLOWER flame front resulting in a SLOWER pressure build.. The list goes on and on.."
OCTANE ? unless you taking about a huge squish area but high comp ? wish you could have explained more

I thought high compression puts a cap on "over rev" ?

Some times being able to lean a engine down some to make it more responsive will be safer than raising compression bc the part throttle at certain rpm is deto prone on most all of our 2smokes . e.g: you have enough fuel added at peek rpm but you may not know that it is taking 5 sec at 6000 rpm at 1/4 throttle to start the light deto which is building up to be more the longer you keep it there. Lower compression can make it safer. We have no way of slowing the speed of the flame in the very hot mid range w/o adding fuel and that sometimes causes lazy throttle response.

"Pre-detonation is when your sled is sitting on the garage floor or idling etc"
I think the guy just made a mistake and mean't preignition

I am in no way trying state I know a 1/100 of what Kelsey knows ,usually his explanations are Very good.

these 1000 have huge pistons and cranks and Im sure parts are just that much more than the 8's . If your modding one I would go through a well known shop like rktech or the many other well known guys and run it with the fuel they say!. If your doing it yourself run good fuel our premium is very questionable and parts are expensive. Always be on the safe side of octane.
 

AaronBND

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 12, 2005
1,696
449
83
Cascade Mnts, OR.
This may be a really stupid question, but how does the bottom-end of the motor (rod, crank bearings) get oiled good anyways when the fuel/oil is coming in through the throttle bodies/injectors and is in the upper cylinder above the piston and rings?

Aaron
 

WyoBoy1000

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 27, 2007
11,213
3,928
113
Red Lodge MT to North, CO
This may be a really stupid question, but how does the bottom-end of the motor (rod, crank bearings) get oiled good anyways when the fuel/oil is coming in through the throttle bodies/injectors and is in the upper cylinder above the piston and rings?

Aaron

The air comes in through the crank case and mixes with the fuel and oil as it is sucked through the crank case into the ports and then into the cylinder, so basically you are hoping the oil is dispersed as it goes through the crank case enough to lube the bearings. This is why I said running lean will just suck everything right past the bearings and in little time,,, your done. Also another reason why I ran my sleds fat where it didn't effect performance.
 
R

RKT

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2001
1,819
1,485
113
Preston, Idaho
www.2strokeheads.com
Thunder..

I am keeping my answers very short and simplified because it is not my intent to go into a full blown theoretical discussion.. Combustion is the LEAST understood part of a 2 stroke engine.. there are SO many things that effect what happens in this process.

The 2 stroker engine is unique in the fact that EVERY process/change has an effect on the other processes.. so, a change in intake tracklength, for example, will effect pipe scavenging and the list goes on and on... this is why building one of these engines CORRECTLY is so difficult and why one shop can build a big bore or head that can make 10%+ more power than another shop.. It boils down to having the sum of all parts work and help the other parts and not just one good part that may have a negative influence elsewhere in the engine.. Hard to explain with my limited typing skills (or lack there of)

As for deto.. Deto occurs AFTER ignition.. ALWAYS... anything that allows for a faster pressure rise will be more prone to deto.. BUT, like I mentioned, I can add compression and actually SLOW the pressure rise time.. this gives you the best of both worlds and keeps deto in check.. Again... it is about understanding the whole not just the parts..

Any pressure rise that occurs BEFORE ignition, by itself, will have NO effect on the engine parts.. it is the collision of the flame fronts that causes the destruction...NOT the fact that there is another pressure wave forming.. So, in answer to your deto question... NO, the pre ignition pressure rises will not cause any problems on their own, they must impact the on-comng IGNITED (after ignition) flame front to cause any harm (DETO)


Hot spots on the piston.. not real likely.. pre ignition can occur whenever there is a hot spot.. but this is usually not due to a piston area.

Compression is the #1 method of making power increases over a stock engine. The physics of it can not be disputed... It always gets the job done... and IF DONE RIGHT, will have little effect on engine over-rev.. if done wrong.. it can klobber engine over-rev..


Do you think that the NASCAR engines are running LOW compression.. Last time I checked, they were not racing at part throttle and LOW rpms.....but HIGH rpms and high compression... So, if high compression on engines limits top end power, one would think that the NASCAR engines would be low compression??? Hmmmm

AARON.. ALL crank bearings in the CAT engine are lubricated via the oil in the fuel falling out of suspension and penetrating the bearings. This is how it works.. So, when you use an oil that has larger molecules (like synthetic) you are trying to stuff a big ball in a small area.. so, the oil does not penetrate but rather "glides" over the bearings (not as good as actually getting in there and mixing with the bearings. Also, synthetic oils usually do not burn (hence the cleaner power valves) so this effects the combustion process and a few others..

So, you can easily see why LESS oil is NEVER a good thing in terms of crank life.

Rod bearings are abused if deto is present.. the hammering of the piston (DETO) sends shockwaves down the rod and it directly impacts the big end bearing.. Repeated deto will eventually take out the bearing and engine failure will occur.. (READ. Turbo M1000)

Couple the leaned down and synthetic oil with a turbo or an engine mod that promotes deto and you have the recipe for a short crank life expectancy.

Hope this helps

Kelsey
 
Last edited:

WyoBoy1000

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 27, 2007
11,213
3,928
113
Red Lodge MT to North, CO
to anyone that think rkt is confusing

call it deto, pre det, pre ign, whatever what we are referring to and what I think everyone is talking about is the same thing, i e when the gas goes bang to early and instead of forcing the piston down when it should, the bang hits the piston on the way up just before it goes the other way, and if it goes bang to soon there is a jar on the rod bearings.

I run a synthetic, but its not one many have heard about, I'm not worried one bit running this stuff. Just so long as there is enough getting in.
 

kcpete

Member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
39
18
8
Anchorage, AK
Maybe I got a good one from the factory....07 M1000 with 4600 miles before the rod bearing went on the Mag side...no extra motor mounts....only blown one belt (200 miles on the sled when it happened due to under hood heat)..the first 3600 miles are from Idaho (6-9000 feet), the last 1000 in AK (0-3000 feet)...top-end done at 3700 miles (perfect piston wash/no cracks in the skirts/120 psi per side) and when I tore down from the rod failure, the wash was the same and there was oil in the bottom of the cases....the sled has had an aftermarket Y-pipe, sno-pro intake and Skinz can since new...I made sure the primary was properly balanced too....I added a PCV when I got to AK (thicker air, more fuel).....The oiler has always been set at about 30:1, PCV is set rich on the bottom end and fuel pressure is 48 psi.....I think, at least in my case, it just wore out from 4600 miles of mountain riding....

I don't think you can really pinpoint a general reason they fail..Every engine is different due to manufacturing tolerences and failure of parts can be attributed to the many different reasons everyone has stated (from excessive motor shake, lack of oil, harmonic balance, blowing belts, detonation, etc).....
 

AaronBND

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 12, 2005
1,696
449
83
Cascade Mnts, OR.
I don't think you can really pinpoint a general reason they fail..Every engine is different due to manufacturing tolerences and failure of parts can be attributed to the many different reasons everyone has stated (from excessive motor shake, lack of oil, harmonic balance, blowing belts, detonation, etc).....

Agreed 100%
 
R

RKT

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2001
1,819
1,485
113
Preston, Idaho
www.2strokeheads.com
to anyone that think rkt is confusing

call it deto, pre det, pre ign, whatever what we are referring to and what I think everyone is talking about is the same thing, i e when the gas goes bang to early and instead of forcing the piston down when it should, the bang hits the piston on the way up just before it goes the other way, and if it goes bang to soon there is a jar on the rod bearings.

I run a synthetic, but its not one many have heard about, I'm not worried Not be one bit running this stuff. Just so long as there is enough getting in.

Not to be a nit-pick.. But, if you had this "bang"(full on deto) on the up stroke, you would, most likely, have catastrophic engine failure very quiickly

The Deto will usually happen on the downstroke or at or near TDC!!

Pre-ignition and detonation are 2 totally different entities.. Pre ignition can lead to detonation but you can deto without pre ignition and this is usually the case with a 2 stroke engine.. Pre-detonation.. is ANYTIME your engine is not detonating.. it is not a term that is used or recognized.. so, using it in any sense really makes no sense..
 
Last edited:

m8magicandmystery

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 20, 2008
7,786
3,724
113
Yukon
Not to be a nit-pick.. But, if you had this "bang"(full on deto) on the up stroke, you would, most likely, have catastrophic engine failure very quiickly

..

which brings me again to the question of a 2.5 degree advance timing key in a bigbore with increased compression...does it increase any chances of possible failures or does it generally decrease..does a person really need the advance timing key..??
 

Goinboardin

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 15, 2009
1,409
820
113
Laramie, WY
Not to be a nit-pick.. But, if you had this "bang"(full on deto) on the up stroke, you would, most likely, have catastrophic engine failure very quiickly

The Deto will usually happen on the downstroke or at or near TDC!!

Pre-ignition and detonation are 2 totally different entities.. Pre ignition can lead to detonation but you can deto without pre ignition and this is usually the case with a 2 stroke engine.. Pre-detonation.. is ANYTIME your engine is not detonating.. it is not a term that is used or recognized.. so, using it in any sense really makes no sense..

The basis of any useful discussion resides in basic understanding of the topic's terms. So no, you're not being nit-picky Kelsey, some of us just need to be more read on the subject and know the jargon (this discussion has been a good source of clarification, I'm not bashing anyone and include myself in the group that needs more background knowledge).

I didn't realize there was a difference between deto and pre-ignition. Thanks for distinguishing that. So is it correct to say that pre-ignition is caused by over advanced ignition timing?

"Some times being able to lean a engine down some to make it more responsive will be safer than raising compression bc the part throttle at certain rpm is deto prone on most all of our 2smokes . e.g: you have enough fuel added at peek rpm but you may not know that it is taking 5 sec at 6000 rpm at 1/4 throttle to start the light deto which is building up to be more the longer you keep it there. Lower compression can make it safer. We have no way of slowing the speed of the flame in the very hot mid range w/o adding fuel and that sometimes causes lazy throttle response."
Is this not due to the ignition curves programmed by the OEMs? Perhaps a reflash (reprogram of the CDI?) to alter the ignition curves across the RPM/TPS range is a good idea when modifying an engine to rid the mid range hot spot. The last sentance in the quote above, I think a better head design or more octane is a better solution to mid range deto than just dumping too much fuel in.

I ran my engine pretty fat as well as on the edge of lean at different times and noticed very little difference in the throttle response (though maybe that was just the nature of that particular motor design; not overly sensitive to rich fueling).
 

Mjunkie

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 19, 2008
1,645
448
83
Ogden, Utah
Kelsey, after reading this thread through a couple times I'm thinking you opened up a can of worms you probably didn't expect or want to open! Thanks though for chiming in and helping people like me who are NOT experts but want to learn.
At this point, and I apologize for me probably making this discussion even longer, but will someone define then what pre-ignition is and exactly what detonation is? I'm guessing that pre-ignition means the compressed fuel and air gets so hot it ignites BEFORE the plug fires to ignite it at the proper time. Let me know if I'm right or wrong please. That is what I always thought was detonation, but I believe Kelsey knows what he is saying when he says they are 2 different things. Could someone explain better so I can understand?
Thanks!
 

m8magicandmystery

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 20, 2008
7,786
3,724
113
Yukon
hahahaha....google is your friend




Engine knocking


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search


"Pinging" redirects here. For other uses, see Ping (disambiguation).

Knocking (also called knock, detonation, spark knock, pinging or pinking) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front.

The fuel-air charge is meant to be ignited by the spark plug only, and at a precise time in the piston's stroke cycle. Knock occurs when the peak of the combustion process no longer occurs at the optimum moment for the four-stroke cycle. The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive.

Knocking should not be confused with pre-ignition (also discussed in this article).





Contents
[hide] 1 Normal combustion
2 Abnormal combustion
3 Pre-ignition
4 Causes of pre-ignition
5 Detonation induced pre-ignition
6 Knock detection
7 Knock prediction
8 References
9 Further reading
10 External links


[edit] Normal combustion

Under ideal conditions the common internal combustion engine burns the fuel/air mixture in the cylinder in an orderly and controlled fashion. The combustion is started by the spark plug some 10 to 40 crankshaft degrees prior to top dead center (TDC), depending on many factors including engine speed and load. This ignition advance allows time for the combustion process to develop peak pressure at the ideal time for maximum recovery of work from the expanding gases.[1]

The spark across the spark plug's electrodes forms a small kernel of flame approximately the size of the spark plug gap. As it grows in size, its heat output increases, which allows it to grow at an accelerating rate, expanding rapidly through the combustion chamber. This growth is due to the travel of the flame front through the combustible fuel air mix itself, and due to turbulence which rapidly stretches the burning zone into a complex of fingers of burning gas that have a much greater surface area than a simple spherical ball of flame would have. In normal combustion, this flame front moves throughout the fuel/air mixture at a rate characteristic for the particular mixture. Pressure rises smoothly to a peak, as nearly all the available fuel is consumed, then pressure falls as the piston descends. Maximum cylinder pressure is achieved a few crankshaft degrees after the piston passes TDC, so that the increasing pressure can give the piston a hard push when its speed and mechanical advantage on the crank shaft gives the best recovery of force from the expanding gases.[1][2]

[edit] Abnormal combustion

When unburned fuel/air mixture beyond the boundary of the flame front is subjected to a combination of heat and pressure for a certain duration (beyond the delay period of the fuel used), detonation may occur. Detonation is characterized by an instantaneous, explosive ignition of at least one pocket of fuel/air mixture outside of the flame front. A local shockwave is created around each pocket and the cylinder pressure may rise sharply beyond its design limits.

If detonation is allowed to persist under extreme conditions or over many engine cycles, engine parts can be damaged or destroyed. The simplest deleterious effects are typically particle wear caused by moderate knocking, which may further ensue through the engine's oil system and cause wear on other parts before being trapped by the oil filter. Severe knocking can lead to catastrophic failure in the form of physical holes punched through the piston or cylinder head (i.e., rupture of the combustion chamber), either of which depressurizes the affected cylinder and introduces large metal fragments, fuel, and combustion products into the oil system. Hypereutectic pistons are known to break easily from such shock waves.[2]

Detonation can be prevented by any or all of the following techniques:
the use of a fuel with high octane rating, which increases the combustion temperature of the fuel and reduces the proclivity to detonate;
enriching the fuel/air ratio, which adds extra fuel to the mixture and increases the cooling effect when the fuel vaporizes in the cylinder;
reducing peak cylinder pressure by increasing the engine revolutions (e.g., shifting to a lower gear, there is also evidence that knock occurs more easily at low rpm than high regardless of other factors);
increasing mixture turbulence or swirl by increasing engine revolutions or by increasing "squish" turbulence from the combustion chamber design;
decreasing the manifold pressure by reducing the throttle opening; or
reducing the load on the engine.

Because pressure and temperature are strongly linked, knock can also be attenuated by controlling peak combustion chamber temperatures by compression ratio reduction, exhaust gas recirculation, appropriate calibration of the engine's ignition timing schedule, and careful design of the engine's combustion chambers and cooling system as well as controlling the initial air intake temperature.

The addition of certain materials such as lead and thallium will suppress detonation extremely well when certain fuels are used.[citation needed] The addition of tetra-ethyl lead (TEL), a soluble salt added to gasoline was common until it was discontinued for reasons of toxic pollution. Lead dust added to the intake charge will also reduce knock with various hydrocarbon fuels. Manganese compounds are also used to reduce knock with petrol fuel.

Knock is less common in cold climates. As an aftermarket solution, a water injection system can be employed to reduce combustion chamber peak temperatures and thus suppress detonation. Steam (water vapor) will suppress knock even though no added cooling is supplied.

Certain chemical changes must first occur for knock to happen, hence fuels with certain structures tend to knock easier than others. Branched chain paraffins tend to resist knock while straight chain paraffins knock easily. It has been theorized[citation needed] that lead, steam, and the like interfere with some of the various oxidative changes that occur during combustion and hence the reduction in knock.

Turbulence, as stated, has very important effect on knock. Engines with good turbulence tend to knock less than engines with poor turbulence. Turbulence occurs not only while the engine is inhaling but also when the mixture is compressed and burned. During compression/expansion "squish" turbulence is used to violently mix the air/fuel together as it is ignited and burned which reduces knock greatly by speeding up burning and cooling the unburnt mixture. One example of this is all modern side valve or flathead engines. A considerable portion of the head space is made to come in close proximity of the piston crown, making for much turbulence near TDC In the early days of side valve heads this was not done and a much lower compression ratio had to be used for any given fuel. Also such engines were sensitive to ignition advance and had less power.[2]

Knocking is more or less unavoidable in diesel engines, where fuel is injected into highly compressed air towards the end of the compression stroke. There is a short lag between the fuel being injected and combustion starting. By this time there is already a quantity of fuel in the combustion chamber which will ignite first in areas of greater oxygen density prior to the combustion of the complete charge. This sudden increase in pressure and temperature causes the distinctive diesel 'knock' or 'clatter', some of which must be allowed for in the engine design.

Careful design of the injector pump, fuel injector, combustion chamber, piston crown and cylinder head can reduce knocking greatly, and modern engines using electronic common rail injection have very low levels of knock. Engines using indirect injection generally have lower levels of knock than direct injection engine, due to the greater dispersal of oxygen in the combustion chamber and lower injection pressures providing a more complete mixing of fuel and air. Diesels actually do not suffer exactly the same "knock" as gasoline engines since the cause is known to be only the very fast rate of pressure rise, not unstable combustion. Diesel fuels are actually very prone to knock in gasoline engines but in the diesel engine there is no time for knock to occur because the fuel is only oxidized during the expansion cycle. In the gasoline engine the fuel is slowly oxidizing all the while it is being compressed before the spark. This allows for changes to occur in the structure/makeup of the molecules before the very critical period of high temp/pressure.[2]

An unconventional engine that makes use of detonation to improve efficiency and decrease pollutants is the Bourke engine.

[edit] Pre-ignition

Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is a technically different phenomenon from engine knocking, and describes the event wherein the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events.

The phenomenon is also referred to as 'after-run', or 'run-on' or sometimes dieseling, when it causes the engine to carry on running after the ignition is shut off. This effect is more readily achieved on carbureted gasoline engines, because the fuel supply to the carburetor is typically regulated by a passive mechanical float valve and fuel delivery can feasibly continue until fuel line pressure has been relieved, provided the fuel can be somehow drawn past the throttle plate. The occurrence is rare in modern engines with throttle-body or electronic fuel injection, because the injectors will not be permitted to continue delivering fuel after the engine is shut off, and any occurrence may indicate the presence of a leaking (failed) injector.[3]

In the case of highly supercharged or high compression multi-cylinder engines particularly ones that use methanol (or other fuels prone to pre-ignition) pre-ignition can quickly melt or burn pistons since the power generated by other still functioning pistons will force the overheated ones along no matter how early the mix pre-ignites. Many engines have suffered such failure where improper fuel delivery is present. Often one injector may clog while the others carry on normally allowing mild detonation in one cylinder that leads to serious detonation, then pre-ignition.[4]

The challenges associated with pre-ignition have increased in recent years with the development of highly supercharged and "downspeeded" spark ignition engines. The reduced engine speeds allow more time for autoignition chemistry to complete thus promoting the possibility of pre-ignition and so called "mega-knock". Under these circumstances, there is still significant debate as to the sources of the pre-ignition event.[5]

Pre-ignition and engine knock both sharply increase combustion chamber temperatures. Consequently, either effect increases the likelihood of the other effect occurring, and both can produce similar effects from the operator's perspective, such as rough engine operation or loss of performance due to operational intervention by a powertrain-management computer. For reasons like these, a person not familiarized with the distinction might describe one by the name of the other. Given proper combustion chamber design, pre-ignition can generally be eliminated by proper spark plug selection, proper fuel/air mixture adjustment, and periodic cleaning of the combustion chambers.[1]

[edit] Causes of pre-ignition

Causes of pre-ignition include the following:[3]
Carbon deposits form a heat barrier and can be a contributing factor to pre-ignition. Other causes include: An overheated spark plug (too hot a heat range for the application). Glowing carbon deposits on a hot exhaust valve (which may mean the valve is running too hot because of poor seating, a weak valve spring or insufficient valve lash).
A sharp edge in the combustion chamber or on top of a piston (rounding sharp edges with a grinder can eliminate this cause).
Sharp edges on valves that were reground improperly (not enough margin left on the edges).
A lean fuel mixture.
An engine that is running hotter than normal due to a cooling system problem (low coolant level, slipping fan clutch, inoperative electric cooling fan or other cooling system problem).
Auto-ignition of engine oil droplets.[5]

[edit] Detonation induced pre-ignition

Because of the way detonation breaks down the boundary layer of protective gas surrounding components in the cylinder, such as the spark plug electrode, these components can start to get very hot over sustained periods of detonation and glow. Eventually this can lead to the far more catastrophic Pre-Ignition as described above.

While it is not uncommon for an automobile engine to continue on for thousands of miles with mild detonation, preignition can destroy an engine in just a few strokes of the piston.

[edit] Knock detection

Due to the large variation in fuel quality, a large number of engines now contain mechanisms to detect knocking and adjust timing or boost pressure accordingly in order to offer improved performance on high octane fuels while reducing the risk of engine damage caused by knock while running on low octane fuels.

An early example of this is in turbo charged Saab H engines, where a system called Automatic Performance Control was used to reduce boost pressure if it caused the engine to knock.[6]

[edit] Knock prediction

Since the avoidance of knocking combustion is so important to development engineers, a variety of simulation technologies have been developed which can identify engine design or operating conditions in which knock might be expected to occur. This then enables engineers to design ways to mitigate knocking combustion whilst maintaining a high thermal efficiency.

Since the onset of knock is sensitive to the in-cylinder pressure, temperature and autoignition chemistry associated with the local mixture compositions within the combustion chamber, simulations which account for all of these aspects [7] have thus proven most effective in determining knock operating limits and enabling engineers to determine the most appropriate operating strategy.

[edit] References

1.^ a b c Jack Erjavec (2005). Automotive technology: a systems approach. Cengage Learning. p. 630. ISBN 1-4018-4831-1.
2.^ a b c d H.N. Gupta (2006). Fundamentals of Internal Combustion Engines. PHI Learning. pp. 169–173. ISBN 81-203-2854-X.
3.^ a b Daniel Hall (2007). Automotive Engineering. Global Media. p. 32. ISBN 81-904575-0-0.
4.^ Barry Hollembeak (2004). Automotive fuels & emissions. Cengage Learning. p. 165. ISBN 1-4018-3904-5.
5.^ a b "solutions for pre-ignition (“mega-knock”), misfire, extinction, flame propagation and conventional “knock". cmcl innovations, UK. Retrieved 12 June 2010.
6.^ "Turbocharger with a brain". Popular Science 221 (1): 85. July 1982.
7.^ "Advanced simulation technologies". cmcl innovations, UK. Retrieved 12 June 2010.

[edit] Further reading
Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline Accessed June 2007
Charles Fayette Taylor, Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 2, Revised Edition, MIT Press, 1985, Chapter 2 on "Detonation and Preignition", pp 34–85. ISBN 0-262-20052-X
Predictive combustion simulations for “downsized” direct injection spark-ignition engines: solutions for pre-ignition (“mega-knock”), misfire, extinction, flame propagation and conventional “knock” by cmcl innovations Accessed June 2010
Evaluation of the Effect of EGR on Engine Knock, SAE Technical Paper n. 982479, http://dx.doi.org/10.4271/982479, ISSN 0148-7191, Oct., 1998.
Experimental Investigation on the Use of Ion Current on SI Engines for Knock Detection, SAE Technical Paper n. 2009-01-2745, http://dx.doi.org/10.4271/2009-01-2745, ISSN 0148-7191, Nov., 2009.
Modeling Pressure Oscillations Under Knocking Conditions: A Partial Differential Wave Equation Approach, SAE Technical Paper n. 2010-01-2185, http://dx.doi.org/10.4271/2010-01-2185, ISSN 0148-7191, Oct., 2010.
Experimental Evaluation of Reduced Kinetic Models for the Simulation of Knock in SI Engines, SAE Technical Paper n. 2011-24-0033, http://dx.doi.org/10.4271/2011-24-0033, ISSN 0148-7191, Sep., 2011.

[edit] External links
Pre-ignition and Detonation by Bob Hewitt (Misterfixit) Accessed June 2007
NACA - Combustion and knock in a spark-ignition engine
NACA - Ionization in the knock zone of an internal combustion engine
NACA - Interdependence of various types of autoignition and knock
Avweb - Detonation myths
Misterfixit - What is detonation?
Gasoline FAQ
 
Last edited:

m8magicandmystery

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 20, 2008
7,786
3,724
113
Yukon
Tuned pipe







It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with expansion chamber. (Discuss) Proposed since April 2009.


A tuned pipe is a part of a two-stroke engine's exhaust system.

It should be distinguished from a muffler as a tuned exhaust pipe does more than muffling the sound. Its purpose is to retain the air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber by using the pressure wave produced by the combustion process itself and bouncing it back to the exhaust port at the appropriate time, thus precluding the fresh charge, which comes through the transfer port/s, to follow the exhaust gases. The principle was invented by Limbach, a German engineer, in 1938. The main reason for it was not to create extra power, which is a secondary result, but to save fuel.





Contents
[hide] 1 Function
2 How it works
3 Limitations
4 Tuning the pipe


[edit] Function

Four-stroke engines have four separate intake, compression, combustion, and exhaust stages. On the other hand, two stroke engines only have two; intake/exhaust and compression/combustion. After combustion, the piston goes down, and as it does so, exposes the exhaust port on the cylinder wall. Expanded exhaust gas rushes out through the exhaust port. The piston travels lower, and exposes the intake port, usually located further down and on the other side of the chamber. Because the exhaust is already flowing in one direction, and because the piston pushes down into the crankcase where the fresh mixture is, fresh mixture flows in through the intake port. The fresh mixture flows in through intake port and some immediately flows out through the open exhaust port. The crankshaft continues to rotate due to inertia and pushes the piston up. As the piston rises, the exposed intake port is closed, blocking the flow of fresh mixture. However, the exhaust port is still open, and so gas is still flowing out of the chamber. If the exhaust port is open ended, the fresh mixture is pushed out by the upward movement of the piston, and only some of the fresh mixture would be detonated. Two stroke engines perform poorly if not fitted with a tuned pipe.

[edit] How it works





A tuned pipe attached to a two-stroke engine, showing how the exhaust gases (in grey) are used to push the escaping fuel/air mixture (in green) back into the cylinder ready for the next ignition.
The tuned pipe is attached to the end of the exhaust pipe. When the exhaust port is opened right after the combustion of the fuel/air mixture, exhaust gas rushes out at great speed; this creates a pressure wave and the banging sound. Immediately before the exhaust port is blocked by the piston that is moving up, fresh mixture also escapes along with the exhaust gas. The first half of the tuned pipe is gradually flared, for easy extraction of gas. The end of the tuned pipe has a dish (or better a cone, see "Tuning the pipe") facing in the direction of the exhaust port. This acts as a wall to reflect the exhaust pressure wave back. A small hole at the centre of the end wall or in the middle of the tuned pipe lets the exhaust gas out. The returning wave pushes the mixture that just escaped the cylinder back in through the exhaust port. This back flow mimics the effect of supercharging or turbocharging to some degree, as a tuned pipe increases the fuel/air density in the cylinder.

[edit] Limitations

The timing of the return wave depends solely on the length of the exhaust to the point where the wave is reflected. However, the length of time the exhaust port is open alters with the engine's RPM. That is the reason for using the last converging cone (see below: Tuning the pipe).

[edit] Tuning the pipe

Because a tuned pipe cannot be effective over the full spectrum of the engine's RPM, it has to be "tuned" for a certain RPM range, just as a single-string/pipe musical instrument. To avoid a very narrow power band, a converging cone (the "baffle" cone) is used: it acts as a multiple series of plates of different diameter reverberating the waves to the exhaust port during a time lap that, if properly calculated, will act over a wider range, creating extra torque and power usually through the top half of the engine's total RPM range
 
Last edited:

m8magicandmystery

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 20, 2008
7,786
3,724
113
Yukon
WOW!!

well... there you have some info.. I did not read it all but I am sure that it answers the questions.. Nice find! and it saves me ALOT of typing!!

just credit your saved time for the future if i ever get ya to do something for me...lol..
 

CATSLEDMAN1

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 27, 2007
2,630
1,207
113
75
Missoula, Montana
yeah

never hurts to review that stuff again...............so when the garage guy decides to being overriding the design perameters of his Suzuki motor its good to have a least a general idea of when to bail..............like the suddenly falling egt number when you haven't done anything smart ?
Still running, got lucky, was your day should have gotten a lottery ticket.
 

WyoBoy1000

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 27, 2007
11,213
3,928
113
Red Lodge MT to North, CO
Not to be a nit-pick.. But, if you had this "bang"(full on deto) on the up stroke, you would, most likely, have catastrophic engine failure very quiickly

The Deto will usually happen on the downstroke or at or near TDC!!

Pre-ignition and detonation are 2 totally different entities.. Pre ignition can lead to detonation but you can deto without pre ignition and this is usually the case with a 2 stroke engine.. Pre-detonation.. is ANYTIME your engine is not detonating.. it is not a term that is used or recognized.. so, using it in any sense really makes no sense..

I don't know as much as you do on the subject but I do know what you are talking about, most don't and I tried to put it more into simple terms or less confusing.

The percentage of it is also a factor and most don't realize they are dealing with it all the time to some level of percentage.
 

Turbotater

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
276
117
43
Magic Valley, Idaho
The air comes in through the crank case and mixes with the fuel and oil as it is sucked through the crank case into the ports and then into the cylinder, so basically you are hoping the oil is dispersed as it goes through the crank case enough to lube the bearings. This is why I said running lean will just suck everything right past the bearings and in little time,,, your done. Also another reason why I ran my sleds fat where it didn't effect performance.

Theres a lot of good info on this thread. I'll touch on a couple things that aren't here that I've seen over the years.
1. Wyoboy, you may want to rethink your lean vs rich theory. Theres a fine line on how rich you can run. Too much fuel in the air fuel mixture tends to wash out and or thin out your lubrication. This is hard on friction surfaces of any type. A leaner mixture leaves a lot better film of oil. You want that fuel vaporized so it leaves the oil behind.
2. Anytime you fire up your motor you should bring it to operating temperature so it purges any condensation it may have created when you first lit it up. The condensation will collect on the bearings and oxidize causing small pits that will eventually destroy them. Summer storage in some environments will cause the same thing. Thats why you see a lot of crank failures in the first few rides of a new season. Synthetic oils don't protect against oxidation as well as mineral oils.
Some guys fire up their engines periodically during the summer months thinking they're helping the situation. They'd be better off just rolling the motor over a few revolutions.
3. In my opinion, oil injected motors that have the oil injected into the intake air stream have a problem with the cold air thickening the oil which makes it want to puddle and it tends to keep it from getting where its needed.
Other motors inject it into the fuel. Some into the float bowls some into the fuel pump. Problem with these is when your bebopin down the trail your not putting much oil into the system. Then you open it up and load the motor on a hard pull and your lacking the oil you need for the load. It doesn't get there till you've held it open long enough to get it through the fuel system. By then your back off the throttle and your running the extra oil injected into the system at a low load situation.
To combat this issue I always run some premix in my oil injected motors.
My premix motors I run 24oz oil to 5 gallons gas.
 
Premium Features